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North West Michigan Streams and Rivers Reports and questions on Big Manistee, Bear Creek, Little Manistee, White, Pere Marquette, Big Sable, Platte, Betsie, Boardman, Jordan, Pine. Please do not reveal specific holes or runs.

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  #16  
Old 01-05-2008, 08:15 AM
toto toto is offline
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I, for one, am totally against it, no matter where they get the water. I've said it before, and I'll keep saying it, but I'll ask just one question. Who owns the water? If you say, "the state of Michigan" then the follow up question is who is the state of Michigan? If they allow this drilling, then the water companies should pay the citizens of Michigan a certain amount of money per citizen for the mineral rights. Thats what happens in Alaska for the oil, and frankly just what is considered minerals? I should think anything taken from the ground, and the people of Michigan need to be compensated for it.
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  #17  
Old 01-05-2008, 10:49 AM
stinger63 stinger63 is offline
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Quote:
third to half of the summer low flow of a trout stream could be withdrawn
This is BS also

I seen this happen down south where a community setup a well to draw water from a spring fed aquafier in one area.It impacted 3 different spring fed streams which were reduced to trickles or no flow during hot summer periods.

Last edited by stinger63; 01-05-2008 at 10:53 AM.
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  #18  
Old 01-05-2008, 11:11 AM
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This is ridiculous. I wonder where the MUCC stands on this. I haven't heard anything out of them on this issue...?????
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  #19  
Old 01-06-2008, 08:05 AM
mondrella mondrella is offline
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I see this trend of selling off are water as a ever growing trend. Are State officials seem to be more interested in Dollars than protecting what we have in natural resources. If this is to continue it needs to be treated like a mineral (which it is) and all within the cone of depression gets thier cut. This is the only way to slow its growth IMHO at this time. Look at the lack of protection from federal goverment the great lakes get. It would put a huge dent in $$ generated by putting laws in effect to prevent the introduction of Exotic species.
With the ever raising temps. With the cycle we are in right now Salmon and trout will be or could be in serious trouble in the future. There is little concern by our state goverment to do what is best. Its about jobs and $$$.
They speak of farmers irrigation using more water. That is true still a percentage of that water remains in the water shed not all of it shipped off to some far away place.
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  #20  
Old 01-06-2008, 10:50 AM
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This is just the tip of the iceberg in what will eventually become the "water wars". Take a look at basics first. Which political party seems to be more willing to divert water from our streams for private enterprise? Get this information......facts rather than conjecture.......and then vote accordingly as to what you think is right.

We need to stringently protect our watersheds and this means underground as well as surface.......IMO.
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  #21  
Old 01-06-2008, 11:10 AM
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Again I ask, what is the MUCC's stand on this and if they don't have a stand why don't they?
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  #22  
Old 01-06-2008, 11:37 AM
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Wonder how many against this withdrawal of water, drink bottled water? I only bring this up because I know a awful lot that fit this scenario. The best way to fight this crap is not buy it.
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  #23  
Old 01-06-2008, 12:43 PM
Hamilton Reef Hamilton Reef is offline
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Steve, Individuals within MUCC staff support the Ice Mountain Company water withdrawal. They consider it much like water mining and jobs. I don't remember any specific present MUCC resolution for Nestle's benefit, but that will probably change with the next round of resolutions at June 2008 convention. Right now MUCC is playing coy with a weak bottle bill (phony public image) and a huge future loophole to benefit Nestle's Great Lakes water diversion 5.7Gal containers (@$4.50 ea).

It is no secret that MUCC Director Dennis Muchmore's wife (Debra Muchmore) is none other than the famous well paid spokesperson working for the Nestle Ice Mountain Company. MUCC says that is not conflict of interest, but then the Muchmore family is still building wealth supporting the 'free taking' of Michigan "Public Trust" ground waters.

I support Clean Water Michigan position in we need to first correct a glitch in the present legislation to bring ground waters into the same Michigan "Public Trust" protections as surface waters. A few corrupt Nestle legislators are fighting that to allow future Great Lakes water diversions and Nestle to steal public waters. Once that "Public Trust" legislation is corrected, then there will be separate discussion to treat ground water mining just like oil per barrel with royalties and taxable. Wars today are over oil. Wars tomorrow will be over limited fresh water resources interstate and global.
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  #24  
Old 01-06-2008, 02:03 PM
mondrella mondrella is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ranger Ray View Post
Wonder how many against this withdrawal of water, drink bottled water? I only bring this up because I know a awful lot that fit this scenario. The best way to fight this crap is not buy it.
I never buy bottled water. Why would I? Ice Mountains wells are 10 minutes from my house and I get better tasting water right from my tap.
I will admit to buying my pop everyday which is just as bad. I have cut back greatly buying Orange juice and milk instead most of the time.

Whit,
I agree totally with what you say. I even took the time to hand right letters to my state Reps. to voice my concern. More need to do the same thing and bombard them with letters and emails. We cannot sit back and wait.
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  #25  
Old 01-07-2008, 08:55 PM
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"I support Clean Water Michigan position in we need to first correct a glitch in the present legislation to bring ground waters into the same Michigan "Public Trust" protections as surface waters."

This is the part I left out of my letter to my representative. Thanks for that idea.

I think these big companies are smelling blood here in Michigan, guessing that we are so far down we'd sell off the future health and prosperity of our state for short term gain.

Protecting the public trust has worked in Michigan in the past. I went to Michigan State and the expansive land it sits on was granted under the Morrill Act. In many states all of the land was immediately sold off in disgraceful transactions that hurt the public. States like Missisippi could have used that land for education like Michigan did. But they didn't.

Thanks for keeping me informed.
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  #26  
Old 01-11-2008, 09:22 PM
Hamilton Reef Hamilton Reef is offline
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Group wants tougher water law

http://www.mlive.com/news/chronicle/...910.xml&coll=8

01/11/08 By Jeff Alexander jalexander@muskegonchronicle.com

Michigan's 2006 water withdrawal law needs to be strengthened to better protect groundwater and give local units of government a say in where corporations pump large quantities of water, environmentalists said Thursday.

Two dozen members of the Great Lakes, Great Michigan Campaign came to Muskegon to show support for a series of Democrat-sponsored bills that would tighten water withdrawal regulations. They criticized a package of Republican-sponsored bills as too lenient.

After holding a press conference in Hackley Park, the group delivered 600 petition signatures to the nearby office of state Sen. Gerald Van Woerkom, R-Norton Shores. Van Woerkom is on a Senate committee considering changes to the existing water withdrawal law.

Environmentalists want the state to require permits for groundwater withdrawals over 100,000 gallons annually. They also want to ensure that the public and local units of government have a hand in determining whether water bottlers or other corporations receive permits to pump surface waters or groundwater.

"As it stands now, local units of government basically have no input," said Jim Cordray, a Blue Lake Township planning commissioner. "When Nestle put in test wells last year in our township, the township board didn't hear about it for several months."

Nestle Waters North America, which bottles Ice Mountain water in Stanwood, sampled spring water last June at the Owasippe Scout Reservation without informing local officials.

The 2006 state law required companies to obtain a state permit only if pumping more than 250,000 gallons of water out of the ground annually. The law does not require public notices or hearings on large water withdrawals.

Competing legislation backed by Senate Republicans would establish a scientific assessment tool as the primary method for determining whether a new water withdrawal would harm a stream or underground aquifer.

Critics said the assessment tool focuses on how water withdrawals affect fish populations while ignoring other signs of ecological health.

Van Woerkom said the assessment tool is based on "very conservative" scientific judgments, which err on the side of protecting streams. "I think they've done a very good job with the assessment tool," he said.

Cyndi Roper, policy director of Clean Water Action's Michigan office, said the Senate legislation would allow corporations to reduce water flow by 22 percent in parts of the Pere Marquette, AuSable and Boardman rivers. It would allow stream flow to be reduced as much as 46 percent in parts of the Betsie River.

Environmentalists also want groundwater specifically protected under Michigan's public trust doctrine, a legal principle that ensures state control of natural resources. Michigan's 1963 constitution afforded public trust doctrine protection to lakes and streams, but lawmakers at the time didn't know that groundwater and surface water are connected.

Van Woerkom said some companies fear extending the public trust doctrine to groundwater could give the state ownership of the water and prevent some individuals and companies from using water beneath their land.

"We're trying to find an appropriate compromise so we can protect the water of Michigan without preventing our residents and companies from having appropriate uses of that water," Van Woerkom said.

Donald Roy, a Ferris State University professor who opposed Nestle's water bottling operation, said the oversight has made Michigan's abundant groundwater fair game for water bottlers.

"The opposite of public trust protection is privatization," Roy said. "If we don't protect our water, it won't be there when we need it for sustainable business operations."
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  #27  
Old 01-11-2008, 09:34 PM
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Problem is you have to get unilateral agreement from all the great lakes states and Canada. Good luck with that.

If anything, we need more power generating plants in Michigan to decrease our dependence on foreign oil and lower electricity costs for businesses that want to come to Michigan. I don't know the stats on water usage, but I assume its better than bottling and shipping it out.
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  #28  
Old 01-13-2008, 10:45 AM
FlyFishingAttorney FlyFishingAttorney is offline
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What's the State Board of TU's position on this issue?
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  #29  
Old 01-13-2008, 06:02 PM
Hamilton Reef Hamilton Reef is offline
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[QUOTE=RoadKillCafe;1950180]Problem is you have to get unilateral agreement from all the great lakes states and Canada. Good luck with that.
QUOTE]

FYI both MI House and Senate are ready to pass the Great Lakes compact, but a few senators like Gerry Van Woerkom bought off by Nestle are trying to keep the diversion loophole in place to privatize the "Public Trust" waters.
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  #30  
Old 01-13-2008, 06:10 PM
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[quote=Hamilton Reef;1952119]
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoadKillCafe View Post
Problem is you have to get unilateral agreement from all the great lakes states and Canada. Good luck with that.
QUOTE]

FYI both MI House and Senate are ready to pass the Great Lakes compact, but a few senators like Gerry Van Woerkom bought off by Nestle are trying to keep the diversion loophole in place to privatize the "Public Trust" waters.
Doesn't Canada use a lot of Great Lakes water in some of their industries (I cant remember which ones). Seems to me a Great Lakes Compact is very important to save the Great Lakes (this is one area where Govt intervention is a good thing). If big industry had their way, the lakes would be polluted and we'd have a lot more shoreline due to reduced depth.
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